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American League MVP

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Archie
who says they are THE MAJOR offensive categories anymore?

I think that is the crux of the argument
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Exactly. Trout has WAR up the wazoo. Trout is like 10 pounds of WAR in a 5 pound bag.

There is absolutely no argument for the other side. There is no case. Everything is completely black and white.

As with most things.
 
BGS 9.5
Who exactly is beating Cabby in any of the 3 major offensive categoreies? That's right, NOBODY. When somebody has a season like this and the team may still make post-season (which in my mind is irrelevent), I can't possibly see the arguement for anybody else; Hamilton and Trout have had great years, and some of the guys that chimed in here I have huge sports respect for, but honestly, unless Cabrerrera tanks the next 2 weeks, I would be absolutely shocked if he didn't win MVP, even if he fell short of the Triple Crown.



Suppose he does win the triple cown - would that change anybody's opinion here even if the Tigers didn't make the post-season? And yes, I know this has happenened before......
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Nice to see you back and perfect logic! :up:
 
Mudcat
Exactly. Trout has WAR up the wazoo. Trout is like 10 pounds of WAR in a 5 pound bag.

There is absolutely no argument for the other side. There is no case. Everything is completely black and white.

As with most things.
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Well, the problem with using WAR is... whose WAR are you using?

There isn't a consensus WAR formula. There are three different major WAR formulas, and their accuracy is fairly questionable.

The WAR metric isn't like some of the more refined sabermetrics. It's not as easy to put a great deal of faith into.
 
BGS 9.5
Who exactly is beating Cabby in any of the 3 major offensive categoreies? That's right, NOBODY. When somebody has a season like this and the team may still make post-season (which in my mind is irrelevent), I can't possibly see the arguement for anybody else; Hamilton and Trout have had great years, and some of the guys that chimed in here I have huge sports respect for, but honestly, unless Cabrerrera tanks the next 2 weeks, I would be absolutely shocked if he didn't win MVP, even if he fell short of the Triple Crown.

Suppose he does win the triple cown - would that change anybody's opinion here even if the Tigers didn't make the post-season? And yes, I know this has happenened before......
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RBI lol
 
Terrible stat. Too opportunity dependent. And naturally penalizes a lead-off hitter like Trout who comes to bat roughly 25% of the time with the bases empty.

And why are we focusing solely on offensive numbers? Offensively, Trout and Miggy are close. It's the other aspects of the game where Trout smokes him. Trout plays the more important position, and does so at a Gold Glove level. Miggy is an abomination at 3B. Trout's the best baserunner in the game. Miggy needs a golf cart to make it from first to third.
 
I give you the defense and base stealing and I love to see Trout win it but just think the other guy deserves it more!

Plus Trout won't be playing a full season of games and his last 27 stats are .250 BA and .744 OPS while Miguel in 25 has .365 BA and OPS of 1.203! Mike might be hitting a wall?
 
It won't be close unless Billy Beane has lots of votes! MVP has always been associated with being the most valuable player in helping your team do as well as possible! Stats not necessarily the only factor but logically they have to be great to be in the running for the award!

Cabrera helped the Tigers make the playoffs! Trout helped the Angels come in 3rd! On paper on 1st day of season nobody can argue that the Angels were better than the Tigers and even though Detroit didn't play that well till the end, LA was a major disappointment this year!

Cabrera batted .330 to Trout's .326! Cabrera had 44 HR to Trout's 30! Cabrera had 139 RBI to Trout's 83! Trout had 49 SB to Cabrera's 4! Trout had 139 SO to Cabrera's 98! Cabrera had .999 OPS while Trout had .963! Miguel has the numbers!

The nitty gritty towards the end of the year fighting for your club to do well and advance to postseason! Trout batted .257 and .284 in August and Sept! Cabrera was .357 and .308 in those months! Cabrera OPS was 1.092 and 1.032 in August and Sept while Trout was.866 and .836!

Hitting in scoring position (key, clutch time to get hit) is Cabrera hitting .356 and OBP of .424! Trout was very good too but just .324 and .393! Yes Trout was a better fielder but how does a guy as fat Cabrera have the highest BA in the league! Surely he wasn't getting any cheap hits like say ...... Trout!

The Trout supporters seem to be using what I would call sabermetric-semantics thinking and not using hard cold stats that can't be debated!

Oh and Cabrera won the Triple Crown ......... something not done since 1967!

PLEASE STOP!

You're welcome.

PS I'm now going back to preparing for our journey (which involves meeting the lovely Teela) so don't think any non replying to any unwise posts from hence forth in this thread suggests my uncompromising position can be relinquished!
 
MrMonkey
The Trout supporters seem to be using what I would call sabermetric-semantics thinking and not using hard cold stats that can't be debated!
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are you saying RBI is a cold hard start that can't be debated against? Are you saying Runs scored are not a cold hard fact?

also your first two paragraphs have some statements that don't mesh.

Helping your team do as well as "possible" and then comparing what the Tigers accomplished and what the Angel's accomplished as evidence for Cabrera.

let's not forget Andre Dawson and what he helped the 87 cubs accomplish. Would they have finished where they finished without him?
 
cultures are always changing and evolving, the masses and elite pick and choose which old traditions stay and which go by the way side.

old baseball culture was all day games, no drug testing, 10 balls used to equal a walk way back when, gloves were frowned upon, ect.

I'd like to do away with the DH still, and have more old school doubleheaders and no split doubleheaders.

Sociology>Culture

much more interesting

I'm glad for looking deeper into stats though

its good that a great pitcher like Felix Hernandez doesn't get over looked because his teamates suck
 
Trout led his team to 3rd place? They finished with a better record than Detroit. Guess they needed more games vs Cleveland, KC, and Minn. Trout was called up on April 28 when they were 7-14. LA was 82-59 with Trout.

Debate those stats Mr Monkey.
 
Cabrera helped the Tigers make the playoffs! Trout helped the Angels come in 3rd! On paper on 1st day of season nobody can argue that the Angels were better than the Tigers and even though Detroit didn't play that well till the end, LA was a major disappointment this year!



Vegas would argue the Angels were better, they had lower odds to win the AL and WS than Detroit all season. Detroit was -550 to win the division so they really didn't have to be all that good. Detroit is the hotter team for the last month, no doubt. If the Angels were a major disappointment, what does that make Texas? They led the division for 174 straight days and Oakland led for one.
 
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