Ivey Loses Edge Sorting Case in England

[MrX]

A High Court in London has ruled in favor of a casino that withheld 7.7 million ($12.4 million) in baccarat winnings from poker pro Phil Ivey in 2012. Judge John Mitting determined that Ivey's "edge sorting" technique, used to spot tiny variations in the pattern printed on the backs of the cards, constituted as cheating under civil law.

Ivey won the 7.7 million playing Punto Banco a form of baccarat at Crockfords Casino in August 2012, but the Genting-owned casino refused to pay Ivey his winnings. After months of negotiations failed to bring a resolution, Ivey filed suit at the High Court in London on May 7, 2013, claiming that his methods were legal.

Ivey's trial began on Monday in London where he claimed he was unjustly treated. Mitting reached a decision on Wednesday.

"He gave himself an advantage which the game precludes," Mitting said, according to Bloomberg Businessweek. This is in my view cheating.

Ivey expressed his disappointment through a spokesperson following the ruling.

"I believe that what we did was a legitimate strategy and we did nothing more than exploit Crockfords' failures to take proper steps to protect themselves against a player of my ability," Ivey said. "Clearly today the judge did not agree."

Ivey's attorneys were rejected permission to appeal the verdict, but they can renew their application with the Court of Appeals.

So, basically, according to this judge, any player who gains an advantage that wasn't intended by the game provider is cheating.

Not a great precedent.

 

[Matty]

$12 million is a lot of baccarat winnings.

Not siding with the judge, but Ivey is an idiot for not stopping before it started looking suspicious.

 

[MrX]

The whole scheme is so ridiculous that I can't believe it got anywhere near that far.

They had to request specific cards, request a dealer that spoke Mandarin, request that dealer to rotate specific cards during the course of play.

Ridiculous.

 

[Cami]

I don't know that I'd consider it cheating....using observations to his advantage. fair play imo. don't use marked cards. That's a lot of money to get screwed out of.

 

[Matty]

I say give him half his winnings and tell the casino to fix their shit with the remainder of the money.

I would make a great judge. Every case settled in 5 minutes or less.

 

[Cami]

 

[Matty]

The whole scheme is so ridiculous that I can't believe it got anywhere near that far.

They had to request specific cards, request a dealer that spoke Mandarin, request that dealer to rotate specific cards during the course of play.

Ridiculous.

common

I think it may actually qualify as cheating, facilitated by sloppy casino practices and a shitty card vendor.

 

[reno cool]

"a player of my ability"
bush league fok. because of this twat legit players will be less likely able to bilk similar advantage in the future

 

[Cami]

How'd they even know he was doing that? He had to have told them what he was doing, and he shouldn't have, I'm not saying he should lie, but dude.

 

[Matty]

Read the story Cami - he made a bunch of specific requests and, for some reason, the casino complied with them:

-Use these crappy cards
-Keep using the same deck(s)
-Use an automatic shuffler
-Rotate cards as I see fit

Common!

 

[bacon]

Bullshit. If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin.

-Former professional casino poker player with no usable fingers

 

[Matty]

It's one thing to notice and exploit an existing flaw - it's a completely different thing to introduce the flaw into the game yourself.

Guy seems desperate. He's gonna be signing autographs next to retired wrestlers in no time.

What a maroon.

 

[Cami]

Read the story Cami - he made a bunch of specific requests and, for some reason, the casino complied with them:

-Use these crappy cards
-Keep using the same deck(s)
-Use an automatic shuffler
-Rotate cards as I see fit

Common!

Oh I didn't read it. That is one turbotarded casino.

 

[bacon]

I think I played like two hands I could afford at 5/10 on Full Tilt with him at some point. We didn't bang heads. On that table or the other 20 he was playing. If I remember correctly, which is doubtful.

Full Tilt <-------

Oh man, THAT SITE.

 

[Mudcat]

100% on Ivey's side on this one.

 

[MrX]

Edge sorting has been known about for at least 20 years. It is old, old, old news.

This is the first time I've heard of convincing a dealer to edge sort for you. Pretty hilarious.

Also some lesson to be learned about being able to use an old, well-known technique in the most obvious of ways to take a casino for millions. Sometimes you just gotta be ballsy?

 

[Matty]

100% on Ivey's side on this one.

In the sense that the casino agreed to his nonsense? Sure.

But it looks like he used his "star power" to persuade them to do something that the average Joe would never be able to pull off.

 

[reno cool]

In the sense that the casino agreed to his nonsense? Sure.

But it looks like he used his "star power" to persuade them to do something that the average Joe would never be able to pull off.

absolutely. Casino figured they were in for a big score, because they know he's got money and a rep of someone gambling on various losing games. So their greed prevailed, they got what they deserved, and they should have to pay.

On the other hand Ivey comes off as a skill less ignorant douche bag. Not because he tricked a casino out of money. (that is admirable)
But because his methods were so pedestrian for someone who's considered a great poker player/gambler. And apparently he really thinks he did something skillful. :